175: Philippe Saad, Principal @ DiMella Shaffer

In 2008, Philippe Saad was handed his first senior living project. It wasn't the market sector he envisioned pursuing, but he had to take the opportunity in light of the great financial crisis. This decision unexpectedly became the foundation of everything he's built since.

Seventeen years later, Philippe is not only a Principal at DiMella Shaffer; he's also the Co-Founder of Project Q Communities and a Founding Board Member of LGBTQ Senior Housing, two nonprofits creating homes for LGBTQ+ older adults in Greater Boston. Philippe's works include The Pryde, The Baldwin, Orchard Cove, and many more.

Philippe co-chairs the Design for Aging Committee at the Boston Society for Architecture, sits on the board of Environments for Aging, and is a Director of SAGE (Society for the Advancement of Gerontological Environments). He has spoken at LeadingAge national conferences, the Global Ageing Network, and the University of Toronto School of Architecture. 

Inside this week's episode: 

• How Philippe found his way into senior living: the market's stigma, his first project, and how his father's experience in independent living changed his perspective on aging.
• What the transition to firm leadership looks like: delegation, partnership, growing talent from within, and the responsibilities that come with the role.
• How growing up in Lebanon, losing three homes during the civil war, and building a life as an immigrant in Boston shaped Philippe's understanding of community and design.
• The Pryde: a surplus Boston school becoming one of the first LGBTQ+ senior housing developments in New England.
• DiMella Shaffer: how a firm of 60 operates across multiple market sectors, why interdisciplinary practice is a differentiator, and what the next generation of leadership looks like.

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Transcript

Rens Hayes IV 0:08

Hi everyone, welcome to design development, your hub to learn direct from top performers in real estate design and construction. I'm your host, Ren Tays, co-founder of HO structural engineering, lifelong learner, and I'm personally obsessed with high-powered organizations and the leaders that guide them. Let's go. Joining us today on design development is Philippe Sad, principal at Demila Schaefer. Philippe, thanks so much for joining us today.

Philippe Saad 0:33

Thank you.

Rens Hayes IV 0:34

We have so much to jump into, but not before we understand the background of your name.

Philippe Saad 0:39

Oh wow, okay. That surprised me. But sure. So Philippe is a I spell it the French way with one L two Ps, and my last name is an Arabic last name. It's sad. It means happy, although sometimes people can pronounce it sad, but it's I threw a curveball.

Rens Hayes IV 0:56

I learned this about 30 seconds ago, and I thought that was so sad means happy. Principal spent a career in architecture, affordable housing, senior housing, doing a lot of great things. I want to start off by could you walk us through the decision to go beyond architecture, co-found a nonprofit, and then develop the development we know as the pride.

Philippe Saad 1:15

That's right. And it was not always a clear path. But as an architect and as an architect who was working in senior living back, probably I started 15, 16 years ago. Looking back at my own community, the LGBT, I identify as a gay man. And throughout the path of thinking about where will LGBTQ older adults live or choose to live as they get older. Uh, we could I couldn't find a champion, an organization that would take this mission or this thought, this desire to create this inclusive housing for LGBTQ older adults. That's why with like-minded individuals, Eileen Montour, my co-founder, we really created a nonprofit.

Rens Hayes IV 1:58

I yeah. So you really saw a gap in the market. How did you become aware of the need? Did you see the gap in the current senior housing supply that didn't support this community?

Philippe Saad 2:08

In fact, I saw the benefit that senior living and supportive housing was bringing into those who live in it through my work, walking through some of the early senior living uh communities I was working on as a junior designer, I saw a vibrancy and a beauty in people really living together in community, with community as a big seal. It is really a place for people who live there. And looking back at myself, so that's how I identified the beauty in that that allowed me to say there seems to be a gap here. So how can we, and me as a young architect, wanting to do something? So this is where I walk a fine line or wear two hats, or sometimes I make the joke that I use the pronoun we, me as the architect, but me as the co-founding of LPT Chousing, kind of blending personalities.

Rens Hayes IV 2:58

Tell us a little bit more about the project itself. It started off as a it was a former middle school, is that right?

Philippe Saad 3:04

So the building itself, yes, is a former middle school in Hyde Park that was built in three phases, started in 1902 and then 1920s and 1930s. So it's expanded over to the time. And like a lot of historic buildings, they sit in amazing locations close to urban centers. And this building was a surplus with the Boston public schools, and they put out an RFB and our group submitted for it. So we changed it into a senior housing.

Rens Hayes IV 3:32

Amazing, amazing. And senior housing, you mentioned supportive housing. What does supportive housing mean for you mean to you?

Philippe Saad 3:38

Supportive housing is housing that it's a broad term, and it can come to mean housing that has a lot of services in it. And supportive housing could mean also whether it's affordable housing or non-affordable housing. It could be senior living or non-senior living. It's just housing with a lot of services. And housing, I would like to say also that's designed in a way that supports people as either they age or their physical condition kind of changes.

Rens Hayes IV 4:06

Yeah, if we if we talk about senior housing or the growing demand for more senior housing options in today's world, my understanding is like almost impossible for us to meet the demand over the next five years, let alone the next 15 years. And when I think about the stigma in today's society, and I know I before I really started getting exposed to the needs of senior living and this growing demand, it's like my thought is I want to be independent for as long as possible. And then someone shared this idea of that living independent is really living in isolation, and that's not actually that maybe not the best thing for us later in life. And so this community that you create with these services seems like such an amazing opportunity.

Philippe Saad 4:48

Thank you. And it is living independently, and I think you point at the stigma because I think unfortunately historically, senior living was more institutional based. And the housing that we create is really far from an and they are homes. And actually, I'll tell you a story is that my dad moved into an independent living, and I was able to convince him, or he was able, I should always put the agency on the person. He was able to be convinced that's the right place for him because he could maintain his independence. He was living with my sister for a long period of time, and I felt like he was losing his independence. He was really living on the pace of her family and her kids. And then one day I went to visit him like that, after my mom passed away uh 13, 14 years ago. So he was living at home alone, and then he moved into my sister. And I said, Dad, don't you want to be decide where you want to go and when you want to wake up and what TV show you want to watch? So why don't we go look for independent living for you? He at the last five days of his life in Belgium. So we when I was visiting there a few times, I took him on a tour of some communities. And the first time it was very difficult for him to accept to relocate yet another time. But then he noticed that yes, he can be more independent. And uh it changed the past five years of his life. I think he was happy.

Rens Hayes IV 6:08

Thank you for sharing such a personal story, and it's cool to connect those life experiences to the work that we do as professionals. And I like that twist that living in a community is still living, even if you have supportive services around you. That's more independent than that's an incredible, that's an incredible frame, and I think an important one to give people the it's almost like the freedom. It's like removing that limiting belief that living in it is somehow failure. Let's talk a little bit about Damila Schaefer. You spent a big chunk of your career there. You're now a principal. Tell us about the team today and what you're up to.

Philippe Saad 6:44

Definitely I'm biased. It's my only job in the United States, it's the best place to work. I've been here for 21 years, and it's a very dynamic firm. We're four new-ish principals. So we're no longer new. We've been principals for the past two or three years. We're almost all the same generation, which creates a lot of energy, a lot of alignment. And uh each one of us almost handles one market, one market and a half. We some we have some intersections, but we are a close group of four leaders, and we are pushing the firm, moving the firm in the right direction towards the future. We have 60 individuals who work with us as architects, interior designers. And uh, I sense the energy in the firm in the past three, four years, and it's really changing.

Rens Hayes IV 7:30

That's really exciting. And you mentioned the teams, and so you're obviously at senior housing, affordable housing. Do you have a team that works with you in those market sectors, or do people jump around from market sector to market sector?

Philippe Saad 7:41

So the beauty of the firm is it offers people a lot of options. And yes, there are some people who come in with a focus to work in senior, and I love it because when I started, I didn't want to work in senior living, and I'm like, yeah, I don't want to do this market sector. It doesn't so now when the young generation comes in and they say, I want to work in senior living, it's really it's I love it. But at the same time, we as a firm who has a very diverse practice, people we encourage people to move around from one market sector to another. And I think that's what makes us different, because it's very easy to be siloed and to be just one, to have eyelids and just look at the market from what just one lens. But all overall, design is design. And I think the beauty of design is when multiple markets meet, and this is where interdisciplinary practice becomes really one of our biggest differentiators. And sometimes I'll tell you a story. We were working on senior living projects and like both people from other market sectors, and actually the most out-of-the-box ideas came in from our life science, and because they questioned that we usually do, and uh, we actually were able to really transform that community out in Long Meadow through this like a tiny little thought that was the precursor to the bigger idea.

Rens Hayes IV 9:00

That that is such a great lesson, Philippe. The amount of perspective that you gain from walking these different paths in your career, like they increase your judgment. Every one of those, it's like you you might think when you're siloed, spending the same day and uh every day in the same seat is getting you ahead, and getting off of that path is somehow lost time, but in the end, it improves your judgment that I think improves your impact greater than the time that you spent.

Philippe Saad 9:26

Absolutely. And bringing back personal stories and work at the same time because we are the same person, but at the same time, we have multiple identities. This is what I tell people. Like we're never one thing, we're always a collection of so many identities that we collect along our path. And looking back at me, I am an architect sometimes. I identify as a person as an Arab. I grew up in Lebanon, but also I'm a gay man, I'm a minority, I am an immigrant. So all these different identities get really layered on the person and really make us who we are. I started working in higher education, but then I moved into senior living because that's where I found my passion. And what I learned in higher education is not lost, it's just yet another complexity. People like us, like me, who come in from different backgrounds and have a culture that is more varied. I want to go to food a little bit. Our foods is always a complexity of very different things. And our life outlook is also never just one directional. Sometimes I feel like people have a hard time following us because people are there's a good amount of people who see the world from where they grew up. And sometimes where you grew up is where you work and where you lived. As an immigrant, we come from different places, we collect identities. So we're more complex, layered. Maybe we have more issues, if I want to put it this way, but we could use whatever language we want.

Rens Hayes IV 10:58

That I you're absolutely right. Like the way you see the world has so much to do with the experiences you've gained throughout life. And part of why I have this podcast is I think it's so important to learn through the experiences of others. And podcasts and audiobooks have been such a great vehicle for me to do that, that has allowed to me to change the way I see the world and to challenge me to think differently. And so when I think about all of those things you just said, like no one thing defines who you are, defines who I am. It's all of these things make us who we are today. So it's rather than cast judgment because somebody comes from a different background, it's seek to be curious first, seek to understand before casting powerful. You mentioned a little bit of disgust there when you said, like when you got into you first saw senior housing. Give us the story. How did you find yourself in senior housing? And then what about that market sector changed the way the opportunity you saw in Farringa?

Philippe Saad 11:54

So back then, and in 2005, when I took this first job at the Mala Schaefer as an intern, the firm had a practice in senior living, and we are, we have been as one of the leaders in senior living for quite some time, like 30 plus years. We did some outstanding and visionary work back then in the 90s. But I was one of those who, like a lot of people, were part of that stigma. Like senior living is not cool. Senior living is not a cool restaurant, it's not a tower, it's not like a museum. And when I was in school, these are the types of projects that we were being taught as examinable. Uh affordable housing was a little bit when I was here at MIT, we had a studio on like affordable housing and the urban environment. But in general, on when in my generation, and it has changed right now, my generation, we learned how to like douche like museums and schools and things like this. So coming in and seeing senior living and also like growing up in Lebanon, where senior living is very institutional when I was there. And it's actually a place, it's nursing home, and no one wants to live in a nursing home. So I was part of this mentality that uh senior living is really not what I want to do. And it's not where I could be the most creative. But in fact, when you put aesthetics aside, although senior living is beautiful aesthetically, but you see the power that a market like this can really have on the people it serves. And also, it's a very underserved market from a design perspective because people don't understand. People are afraid to dip their toes in it because I don't know. Sometimes it feels too clickish to me, and I don't like that. Sometimes it feels I try in my work to make it as inclusive and as broad as possible and bring in people in so that more people understand what we do, because it is a beautiful market. So, going back to your question, yes, I was part of those people who had that stigma, but it's was until I walked into that first project in 2008, and the story is a little funny. But Peter Schaefer was the principal at the time, came to me as hey, it's the economic downturn, the firm is downsizing, we don't have a lot of work. I only have a senior living project. It's either senior living out the door. I'm like, I'll pick senior housing. So this is how I started. You had so many options, Philippe. Yeah, yeah. Of course, the story has changed over the time. I've been telling it over and over, but the heart of it is that yes, this was the only project that the firm had at the time, and I had to be placed somewhere. And I just said, sure. I was not in a position to say no to a job back when you're in your like late 20s and you're counting your pennies. Yeah, you didn't want to get laid off.

Rens Hayes IV 14:32

To your point, I think even coming into the profession and going to college for engineering, I wasn't looking at the normal everyday buildings or she. I was looking at the tallest, fanciest, most aesthetically like magnificent buildings. And like, I was like, I want to do that. And then you really learn more about the industry once you step in. Tell us about life growing up in Lebanon.

Philippe Saad 14:56

Um, I grew up during the war, or what we called or the world called the Civil War, and in the 80s, and although it was maybe for my parents, a very uncertain times because they had to care for their kids and making sure we were safe, our house was not destroyed for a fourth time because we lost our home three times. Yeah, I I as a child, I have good memories just because when in wartime, unfortunately, or fortunately to us as kids, you grew up in community and you look after each other and you look at all the superficialities of life don't exist anymore, but it's your day-to-day. So I remember living with our neighbors and our grandparents and our aunts and our closer family, really as a close-knit family, because whether we were sheltering from the bomb or we were doing activities as family, but community was very important. And maybe if I look back, this is where I started to develop this maybe affinity to community. And this brings me to community housing, to affordable housing, to senior housing. This I find beauty in people being together.

Rens Hayes IV 16:10

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I think it says a lot about you to have gone through that experience and then find a way to look back on it with such a positive takeaway. We become resilient. Yeah, perseverance. That's exactly where I was gonna go with that. Like what strength your parents and family had, and you as a young individual going through that type of experience.

Philippe Saad 16:31

Yeah, and it's definitely an experience that really has shaped my life because I think being resilient like you shake things off and you keep moving.

Rens Hayes IV 16:38

Puts life into perspective. Safety and health and family, it's if you have those things, you have everything, right?

Philippe Saad 16:46

Yeah, exactly. Community, I'll use the word community because for LGBTQ people like us, sometimes not me, but some people, their family of choice is their community and not really the biology. So going back to because especially the older population LGBT that we serve have been estranged from their biological families.

Rens Hayes IV 17:04

They didn't grow up in the society. Our culture, and hopefully this is true from your perspective too, is much more inclusive than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. So these people that you're supporting and creating community for grew up in a totally different culture than we have today.

Philippe Saad 17:21

100%. 100%. Although sometimes we feel like we're doing some setbacks, but overall we're moving forward.

Rens Hayes IV 17:27

If we stay on inclusivity in community here for a second, especially in the design profession, it's what can we do in industry as a design profession to better support our LGBTQ colleagues?

Philippe Saad 17:40

Oh, it's a big question. Maybe we have to think about we're not all the same, and LGBTQ people, that's what I sometimes I so I came to the LGBTQ space not by not because I read books, just because of my lived experience. And I came to understand that space and community space is a very important space for the LGBTQ population, because a lot of us sometimes can't hang out with our friends at home, right? We hide our identities when we grow up. So the public space is a very important space for LGBT, whether you're older or younger. And I think not a lot of people understand that how it is the the a community space, a public space, a nightclub, a bar, is more than just going out drinking, right? Or meeting people for your partner is to be in community. And sometimes these things get not always noticed or internalized as important public spaces overall for us as LGBT.

Rens Hayes IV 18:43

This also brings it back to that first part in our conversation where not one thing defines who we are as people. So it's like this is one thing that is a part of all of the things that make up an individual, and we are all human. And so it's like we all like when you talk about community needs, it's like these are everyday needs for all humans, right? Like we community, we're social beings. So it makes a ton of sense that for that to be that important.

Philippe Saad 19:08

Yeah, and I tell people because people were asking me, what does it take? Why why LGBTQ housing? What is it different? I'm like, it's not about designing with rainbows or whatever it is, it's really about thinking about what does the community need? And in our case with the pride, we need it to be in a place that is connected to an urbit center. We were Hyde Park is a great small neighborhood of Austin that is usually not always thought about. It's walkable, the library's there, the Manino Arts Center is there, and there's a YMCA right next door, a bowling alley, an ice cream store. So these are the things that if any older adult needs, you need to walk easily to your to the theater, to a library, to your supermarket, to your grocery store, and even more the LGBTQ people. So we wanted we wanted this for our community, not to be away tucked away in the suburbs where everybody had needed a car or to be dependent on transportation services.

Rens Hayes IV 20:03

If I'm thinking through like an urban development and even senior living, I can imagine the importance of even having, I think, some of those amenities or like an ice cream shop, a store that brings the community to the development, not just to service the people that live there, because then you're really bringing everybody.

Philippe Saad 20:20

Yes. You're talking about urban and urban housing and to keep it into the design, our focus, Luke. Although urban living is not maybe for everybody, but I do believe that urban spaces andor small towns are great places for people to go, get older because they have a high concentration of services. And whether you are affluent or lower income, we all need to be connected in some way or another. Some people choose different levels of connection, some people want more to be a little bit more on the suburban side and away from the noise. But when you live in a place that has health services and transportation services and food services, it just supports aging in a much better way. I say jokingly, and people get shocked, that the upper west side in New York is the best place to get older because you're in the elevator ride from everything. An elevator ride from everything.

Rens Hayes IV 21:12

Yeah, that's something to there's something to be said for that. Quick break from the show. Thanks for tuning in to design development. We're trying to help as many people as possible. So if you could subscribe and leave a review on today's episode on whatever platform you're listening, it would be a great help. It's the only way we're going to reach more people. Let's get back to the show. What life experience or was it an individual inspired you to pursue architecture?

Philippe Saad 21:40

It's funny. I it's I'm one of those who never applied for anything besides architectural school. I used to play with Legos like all the kids back then. But my Legos were more creative. They were not like a kit of parts that you always had to do one thing. So they were just the blocks. So I could do anything. And I was doing Houses when I was a kid, and I would spend hours and hours playing with those Legos. I don't think my story is any unique. A lot of architects of my generation, we grew up playing with Legos, and it just led me to that, but in a very focused way. I did my undergrad in Beirut at the American University of Beirut, and I only applied for architectural. I was lucky to be accepted. And I practiced two years, two and a half years in Lebanon, and then I wanted to come in and do a master's. I actually the story is a little bit interesting because I was done with practice. Uh, I wanted to pursue a PhD research career. So I came to do a two-year master at MIT, hoping that I will continue to PhD and then job at the Mala Schaefer, and here it is 21 years later.

Rens Hayes IV 22:46

21 years. So what about those? What were you feeling in those first two years of practice that made you think, oh, I want to pursue a career in academia?

Philippe Saad 22:54

I worked in two prominent practices in Lebanon that were doing high-end custom. So I was doing like 8,000 square meter homes in the people with a lot of money. I was able in short two years to be put on projects where I touched a lot of things. So I did design and I did coordination and I did client management. And then I'm like, you know what? I want to do something a little beyond that. Again, going back to Lebanon, we don't have those social ice aspects of architecture. Usually architecture is driven by higher income markets. So it's either high-end malls or homes or something like this. And I wanted something different. I had friends in academia who were doing research. I had my ex-professors have been MIT and Harvard grad. So they're like, hey, why don't you go over there? I'm like, sure.

Rens Hayes IV 23:44

So I applied and I got accepted. And what a that like changed the trajectory of your life. Uh now you've never left Boston.

Philippe Saad 23:52

It did. And I think about it sometimes. What would have been? I could have probably, I don't know, maybe a good practitioner of architecture in Lebanon doing custom homes or something, but it chose a different path. It's fascinating how life puts you sometimes. I always say I never had a goal in my life, but I've always had open minds and sometimes said yes to a path that I never thought about. It and it led me to where I am right now. And I don't know tomorrow, what's gonna happen?

Rens Hayes IV 24:22

Yeah, what's gonna happen? So you're finishing up your graduate studies at MIT. You were considering to pursue academia, but then you found Damila Schaefer. So what made you flip back to this world of practice?

Philippe Saad 24:35

So I was an intern. As an international student, you can get like an internship for a year on your uh student visa. And then I had met my husband, who's now my husband back then, and I'm like, you know what? The firm likes me. I like this guy. So why don't I try and just see if they want to sponsor me? So they sponsored me as an international person, H1B visa, an immigrant who came here. And actually, at the time my mom in Lebanon was pushing me to stay. She's like, hey, continue, stay there, get build your resume. And she was right, build your resume, and if you want to come back, you can always come back. And uh that's how I felt like this place was very welcoming and listen, they listened to my ideas or my You had a voice even from like early in your career, you had a voice in that culture.

Rens Hayes IV 25:24

That doesn't happen by accident, right? That's intentional coming from leadership to create a culture where everyone has a voice. That's right.

Philippe Saad 25:31

And right now, as one of the principal leaders of the firm, I always have that in mind because I want to give the young generation in the firm a similar experience that I have, if not better. So, as I was lucky to be mentored by Peter Schaefer and Frank DeMella of the time, I hope I can continue to do this for the younger generation in such a meaningful way. What does your typical day look like as a principal of the firm? Every day is different, and that's what I love about my job. I come in thinking that I have a light day because my calendar sometimes had three or four meetings, and I think I'm gonna do one thing, and I end up doing so many other things. What I like the most is walking around in the office just to connect with the tools we have in the office and my team. Sometimes it's my lunch. I hold my lunch in my hands with my fork and I just walk around and start chatting with it's just 20 minutes.

Rens Hayes IV 26:23

Hopefully, Philippe didn't bring salmon in today.

Philippe Saad 26:28

Yeah. So it's very unpredictable. And I think that's what I like about my job. If I had to do the same thing over and over every day, and I think that's the creative industry that we're in, it's very diverse and varied, and every day brings in a whole different thing.

Rens Hayes IV 26:42

I'll share this matrix that really helped me have conversations and think about really, I think, managing and creating structure throughout a company. It's called the contributors, and there's four stages. There's you step into an industry, you have absolutely no idea how to tie your shoe as in terms of designing a building, even though you have a degree. Yeah. Right. So you have to contribute dependently through others. And then your job is to stack skills to become independent in operating and doing these portions of your job. Then you contribute through others and contribute strategically. So in that path from like entry engineer or architect all the way to senior leader, you're walking all these different areas of your career through those stages. And so when I look at, or if I ask you when you stepped into principal, what were uh what was a difficult thing to start to delegate that you wanted to maintain control of and hands-on experience driving forward, maybe in senior living design versus what things were you able to delegate more easily?

Philippe Saad 27:38

We don't go to school to know how to run a business, right? We go to school to know how to design. And it's a very, it's a very it's a steep learning curve. There's a lot of things that we learn on the fly and we go the plane as we fly and fly the place. Absolutely. I'm not from here. English must not my first language. You're doing great. But uh delegate delegating is is a big task, but also there's another thing that comes with delegate is understanding that you're or realizing that your words matter, or your words are not just have a different weight. And I think this is what took me a little bit longer, because once you realize that your words matter, then the agency that you have to direct people or help them in their path changes. And this is where it comes hand in hand, then you stop, then you see a beauty in delegating because you also see growth in the people who are working with. And it's a uh it's all together, nothing is in isolation. You don't learn one thing from a day to another, it's just a process. And for me, it was it was that process to really see how listening to people, knowing how to direct my team, and I'm looking this way because my team's sitting out there, brings a sense of joy and achievement. And when you see people like really coming up with their own ideas that are not relying on you as the leader to tell them what to do, it's fantastic because it makes actually the practice even richer and our creativity even more diverse. And that's what I love about and I think right now I'm right at this juncture where my team is very independent and we are really a great team, and we come together really to think together.

Rens Hayes IV 29:22

Yeah, such a great way to share the challenges we face when we come into a profession because we're passionate about architecture, engineer, or building a building, and then all of a sudden we have to figure out how to manage, lead, and run a business. There's so much to learn beyond the thing that we were originally passionate about. And then it's hard to let go and to delegate because we care so much about the work. And I think the big aha for me and what I hear in your story, it's like I care so much about this building being perfect in all of the decisions and sharing all the lessons I've learned because of the mistakes I've learned in my past. But if I don't allow somebody to lead independently, I'm actually hurting the long term of the company because we need to let those people go through those. A mentor or friend of mine shared this you delegate by managing risk. It's can you live with the downside? So if this person in this task or this job were to make a mistake, can we repair it? Can we resolve it? And then it's if not, then we need to make sure somebody with enough seniority is responsible for that outcome, or we have to do it independently. But we also have to take the upside. What's the upside of not letting somebody step up to manage this in between?

Philippe Saad 30:31

Absolutely. It goes back to what I said earlier is that I was given that chance. And as I grew from within the firm, I do believe here we have a culture that also people grow from within. And it's my task. And it takes a good 10, 10, 12, 15 years to give people the right tools for them to be able to lead a firm. But also, it takes also the vision to identify these individuals early on. Sometimes these individuals don't know it about themselves. And so you push them a little bit, you give them a little bit more responsibility, and you will be surprised they fly with it. And this is where I have a lot of joy. It's like excitement because you see this form. And as a principal, now I'm the fourth generation owners of this company. My role is to, it's almost like a stewardship. I have to care for this organization that employs and puts so much creative work in the world for the next generation. I have to look for the next leaders. And we have some great next leaders in the firm.

Rens Hayes IV 31:29

Yeah, amazing. It's you move from player to coach. It's like how you create successful outcomes for a customer is are you able to recruit and hire great talent? And then are you able to put them in a position to succeed to deliver successful outcomes for your customer?

Philippe Saad 31:44

Yes, you have to create the space for them to succeed. It's not just going to happen on its own. And I think that's the role of us as leaders in the firm.

Rens Hayes IV 31:52

W was principal always the goal for you?

Philippe Saad 31:55

Did you always want to be a firm leader? I told you earlier, I never imagined I don't do it. I've never done this kind of path for myself. I never imagined that I will be a principal in an American firm. Me as the young Lebanese architect uh back then in the early 2000s. Absolutely not. I yeah, no, especially not in a big company like because we are a medium-sized company, it's a lot of responsibility. Maybe if I found out earlier on that this is how much responsibility there is, I would have said that.

Rens Hayes IV 32:24

Yeah, there is absolutely, I think that's an important thing for professionals to hear because it's like everybody, I think even in in US society, we're programmed to always want more, right? We want more, we want this opportunity. And it's, I think a big part of these conversations is making people understand what it takes to be successful at the next level. And it's not just, hey, you have these responsibilities. It's like you're also responsible to build the internal skills and ability to deliver on these responsibilities because an entire group of people are relying on you to put in that work.

Philippe Saad 32:58

Yeah, more and more can be exhausting and might not be the right thing. And you're always gonna chase more. And the more you have, the more you need more to feed this. Yeah, it's a thing a lot of us could fall in, like people ask me also sometimes, like growing the firm. I don't know if we want to be 200 people. It's gonna change the who we are. But yeah, doing better work and doing aligning ourselves with great clients who can really have meaningful work. Yes, that's growing the firm as well. It's not in numbers, it's really in quality of work and also in meaning.

Rens Hayes IV 33:31

I'm glad you said that growth isn't always in top line or headcount growth. There's a lot of ways to improve and grow as a team and as a company. I even think of where our firm's about 10 years old now, and we honestly had to recycle a lot of our revenue because of where we're going as a company. We we had to grow through a lot of small and mid-sized developments, but then we're really just building a team and an engine to be able to service large-scale development.

Philippe Saad 33:57

Yeah.

Rens Hayes IV 33:57

Right. So it's like growth didn't always look like just continued revenue growth. Sometimes it was like a recycling of revenue and improving the internal organizations to be able to deliver at scale. Yes.

Philippe Saad 34:09

Yes. And that's the beauty of being a partnership as well. Going back to the firm here, building the systems that allow us to do better work is extremely important. And I don't do operations and I will not want to do operations, but my partner does it and does it so well. And we're setting up really the systems with the technology and AI and the platforms really to really do better work and actually give our team excitement about our work and really move into the future and leverage all these technologies that we have right now to do better work.

Rens Hayes IV 34:43

Yeah, that is really exciting and important focus. I often say, uh as I would say, professionals, customers, buyers, the one we're the client. It's really when when you can get a peek under the hood at another company that you're either partnering with or hiring or supporting, if you can get an understanding of how the internal operations function within that company, it's a pretty good indicator of what to expect and an outcome. And like you really do need someone responsible, especially at a firm of your scale, somebody fully responsible for the operations because it acquires that type of attention to make sure that it's operated properly. I want to ask you, you like you said, you're fourth generation owner. There's a lot of firms in the industry that are going to be going through similar transitions, whether it's an owner that's already thinking about that transition, but maybe didn't realize the amount of effort required it takes to transition a firm, or maybe it's somebody that's sitting in the upper end of their team and are looking to buy into leadership. Any advice from your experience for those individuals?

Philippe Saad 35:44

I'll tell you, transition for us doesn't happen over time or overnight. Growing talent from within, maintaining the culture of the firm, hugely important. But also what I'll talk about us. I'm not gonna say that any transition should look like what we have done, but I think I am proud to say that we have had a very successful transition, fourth generation. Obviously, it has been successful. It's I remember one time where our previous generation of principals got us all into kind of a principles boot camp. And we're like, why are we doing? But besides learning the ins and out of like how to do being a principal and manage people and all that kind of stuff, it was more to create the cohesion amongst us as leaders. And I think that is we have each other's back, and I think that is the that's the key to a successful leadership. We have each other's back, so we don't watch our back internally because I know we just have to look outward as a group, and that's how we can become stronger and having a strong partnership is one of the biggest advantages in business.

Rens Hayes IV 36:53

It's so hard to do, it is like another marriage. Yes, it is in a lot of respects. And I think when you have that underlying trust that there's always going to be challenges that you face, and there's always gonna be friction. But if you believe the other person that you're partnered with has positive intent, is never intentionally doing something to undercut or put you in a bad position. If you lead with positive intent, that I think is a big part of the battle because then you're solving those problems together, not in conflict with one another.

Philippe Saad 37:23

And another key thing for successful is the the main goal is the benefit of the firm. Everything we do is for the well-being of the company. It's not for me, it's not for her, it's not for them, it's for the well-being of the company. And I think this is where we're aligned. And I think any transition, any new leaders, group, if the goal is to the longevity of the firm has to always come first.

Rens Hayes IV 37:49

Charlie Munger, who the late Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's partner, had so many great perspectives, I think, on life, business, partnership. And one of those that I reference often is you show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. And when I hear you talk about your firm, the culture and what you're doing at the Miller Schaefer, it's very much when I talk about company success, you have to align employee success with customer success and then the company, right? The company can't fail to create these two sports because then you don't have a viable business. But you can't forget about creating employee success and customer success. And if you are constantly referring to those three things and making sure they're aligned, I think the sky's the limit.

Philippe Saad 38:29

That's a good way of putting it.

Rens Hayes IV 38:30

I wanted to talk about another, what I think seemed to be a very special development that you were part of, the Harmon Apartments in Dorchester. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Philippe Saad 38:39

So Harman Apartments is in affordable housing that is designed for people with neurological disabilities. So 100% of the units are exceed accessibility MAB guidelines. And the client is a nonprofit, the Boston home, and they operate a nursing home on site, but also um wanted to provide a place, a home for people who don't really need nursing care, but they have MS or other neurological uh disabilities. So although it is not senior housing, it really works in the same mechanism as senior housing. So Harmon Apartments is the independent living part of the Boston home. And then the Boston Home nursing home is the more acute, care-heavy space like a nursing home. So the and as I came to learn, although my aunt growing up had a mess, she lived 20 years with it's a horrible disease. I didn't know all the intricacies of the disease itself and the impact it has on society. Having, if you're a family or if there's one person in the household, and usually it's it's it's more female, it affects more women than men, it really brings a lot of burden on a family when there's one person of the household or one parent really with this severe disability. So the Boston Home wanted to provide homes. And these are independent living apartments for families. There are ones and twos and three bedrooms to really alleviate the weight that this disease can have on a family. So if the mother has a mess or the dad has a mess and they have two kids, they can live in this apartment with one income subsidized. It's low income, it's funded by tax credits, and it's close to the Ashmont train station. So it is connected so that the family could walk or go around and take transportation and go to work. And really, if they need more services, the nursing home is there to provide those additional services if the person is not ready to move into a nursing home. So it's really a big project with, although small in size, I think 36 units, with a big impact in the disability society community.

Rens Hayes IV 40:51

Thank you so much for sharing the details. What an amazing organization and development. And I feel like a big theme behind your the work you've done in your career is really like mission-driven like initiatives and creating community. Obviously, community is a big part of what you do.

Philippe Saad 41:07

This is how it happens. I work with a lot of not-for-profits who do a lot of this work and I love it.

Rens Hayes IV 41:12

What's the best piece of advice you've got in your career?

Philippe Saad 41:15

Ask why. Always. As designers, sometimes we're told, oh, we can't do that. Why? As or when you come into a firm that has a set practice, oh, this is how we've always done it, this is how senior living is. Why? Or go to a client and they tell you we want a new restaurant in our senior living community. Ask why. Because a lot of times, what they think they want is not really what they need or they want. And it's not me telling them what they need, it's just part of the conversation so that together we can come to a solution or actually a program for their building. Most times it is really they need a bigger dining room because they build 45 new independent living buildings. But most times, sometimes it is not only that. Sometimes there's always something else. And if you don't ask why, you don't get to the core of the matter. And also it's part of those discussions that you have with your clients or even your employees to really understand them more. Ask why.

Rens Hayes IV 42:12

Great advice. The why, like you said, if you don't ask why, I find it's very easy to get distracted by the symptoms of the root cause of the actual problem. Right. And the thing about symptoms is that you can never solve them. You're just managing the symptom of the actual problem. Last question before I let you go, Philippe. A favorite book or podcast you'd share with the audience.

Philippe Saad 42:31

So books that really have changed the way I see things are maybe I can do too. Can I give two advices? Absolutely. There's a book called This Chair Rocks, and it's by Ashton Applewhite. And sh in her book, she really demystifies aging and really talks about aging in a way that is really part of it. And I think me as a design professional who do senior housing, it's important not to see aging as a place where people go to die or it's the end of life, but really as a way of just life in general. So her book really changed a lot of the language I use. And then Tanahisi Coates is a phenomenal writer, and he taught me a lot. And he has two books, The Message and also Between the World and Me. And it really allowed me to be able to see the world in other people's eyes, and mostly black African Americans, who, as a Lebanese, I never grew up with people of color, right? Because Lebanese society is very unique and homogeneous.

Rens Hayes IV 43:32

So it allowed me to really broaden my thing and broaden my what inclusivity and support means to my amazing recommendations in in line with the mission behind design development is to challenge the way we think, to share our perspectives, and so that we can all learn from each other. Be curious, ask why. Philippe, thank you so much for joining us on design development. I wish you nothing but the best. Appreciate the work you and the team at the Millish Jafer and all the stuff you're doing in affordable and seen.

Philippe Saad 44:01

Thank you for featuring us and the work at Pito.

Rens Hayes IV 44:06

Everyone, thanks for tuning in to Design Development. Real quick before you leave, our goal is to help as many people as possible. We're a growing community and you're a big part of it. So just click that send button. Send this episode to a friend to let them get those same insights that you got today. We appreciate you. See you next time.