180: Gregory Minott, Managing Principal @ DREAM Collaborative

In 2008, Greg Minott and co-founder Troy Depeiza launched DREAM Collaborative with a clear conviction: architecture, planning, and real estate development should exist under one roof. 

Now, seventeen years later, DREAM stands as Boston's leading minority-owned integrated design and development firm with a portfolio that has transformed neighborhoods across the city. 

Greg joins Rens on Design Development to share the story of his career journey: what it took to build a vertically integrated firm from the ground up, how nearly two decades of mission-driven development have shaped his approach to leadership, and realizing that controlling capital can redefine possibilities for a community.

Greg grew up in Mandeville, Jamaica, and moved to the United States in 1999 to pursue graduate studies at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. After earning his Master's in Architecture and Infrastructure Planning, Greg built his early career at Elkus Manfredi Architects, where he worked on award-winning buildings across Boston before co-founding DREAM in 2008.  

Inside this week's episode: 

• How DREAM's vertically integrated model works in practice, and why controlling capital makes the difference in creating a building serving a community versus one merely sitting in it
• DREAM's landmark mixed-use development in Nubian Square
• Greg's path from Jamaica to Boston, connecting his passion for design to community development, and early mentors
• Co-founding DREAM during the 2008 recession and the cash flow realities of building a firm from scratch
• What a nearly 20-year partnership with co-founder Troy Depeiza has taught him about respect and alignment

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Transcript

Rens Hayes IV 0:08

Hi everyone, welcome to Design Development, your hub to learn direct from top performers in real estate design and construction. I'm your host, Ren Hayes, co-founder of H+O Structural Engineering, a lifelong learner, and I'm personally obsessed with high-powered organizations and the leaders that got them. Let's go. Greg, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Ros. It's a pleasure to be here. First, you seem like a very mission-driven organization, Greg. And I, for one, have come to find mission, vision, and core values. Having those right as an organization is the most important thing you can have right. It can you can overcome a lot of organizational flaws when you have clear mission, vision, core values. Can you tell us about your mission at Dream?

Greg Minott 0:52

Yeah, you know, our mission at Dream is really to use the built environment to improve lives. We say it a little bit more complex than that on our website or wherever you see printed material, but at the heart of it is trying to find meaning in our work beyond just the a building or a space, but tying it to outcomes for people. These things are gonna last a lot longer. It's a lot of people say that a lot lasts a lot longer than any of us are gonna be around. But for us, while they're here, while the people are here, we want them to be able to have input into what is being built around them and have some input into what they prioritize that would improve their lives. And that's really what our mission is about. It's not just about buildings, it's about building communities, the communities that these buildings sit in, and also the environmental health for of those areas. And it's not just a bonus, it's the product, it's what we're building.

Rens Hayes IV 2:03

Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that is most inspiring to me about the built environment and our whole collective industry, and when I say collective design, construction, and real estate is the assets that we create truly are the place we all live, work, or get together as a community, which I think is such a cool ethos as an in industry to have. For those that aren't familiar with Dream, could you give us a snapshot of the company today? Like where are you located, how many people, the types of work you do?

Greg Minott 2:32

Yeah. So we uh we've been around now for about 17 years. We're based in Boston, although we work virtually anywhere, but we are based in Boston. That's where we had uh have our roots and the type of projects that we do, we're very diverse in what we do. We do housing, we do commercial mixed-use buildings, we do planning, but then also we do real estate development. So not only do we build for others or for design for others or ourselves or plan for municipalities, but we also do real estate development and tie those, all those three things together in a vertically integrated way to produce outcomes that it would be very difficult to do if those three different things were done by different organizations.

Rens Hayes IV 3:22

Yeah, I think a lot of the challenges in our industry is how fragmented the delivery of one commercial real estate asset. I think about it, it's like there could be a dozen consultants, plus the attorney, plus the development team, and all these other parties. And then you go to the construction side and there's dozens of subcontractors that come together to build these things, not to mention the suppliers, right? It's very fragmented, which I think is what creates a lot of the challenges, but also the opportunity as we look forward. And I think that's what you're alluding to there is by bringing these in-house, you have some streamlined efficiencies by being on both sides of the table.

Greg Minott 3:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have some streamlined efficiencies, and you also have to touch more on those opportunities in terms of what actually gets built. We were able to, as an example, a project that we just finished up in Nubian Square. It was by all accounts, when you look on the project from the outside, it's a mixed-use building, retail on the bottom, it's residential on top. We have those products are throughout the city. You find them in every neighborhood. But by being able to be on the design side, planning, working with the city and the community to share and to come up with the ideas, and then be on the development side to pull together the financing and hire the right builders and then have the right tenants and all that in there. We created something really special that if we weren't in all three of those conversations, we would have probably produced something that's pretty generic. But we're able to, because we're able to be in all those conversations, we were able to almost, in some respects, design and develop like a tailor-made suit for that community where local businesses could actually find a home. Actually, someone who lives right next door that owned a dance studio was able to move our dance studio into the base of our building. They've been looking for a home for 15 years. We had no idea that would be the outcome, but we were open to creating a place for artists, and that was a very specific need for that community. And the residents above it are 50% of the units are set aside for those for artists in the community. So you can start to see, and there's a lot more layers, and I can get into it as we go on, but you'll start to see a theme where because if we're not controlling what we realize, if we're not controlling capital, we're not controlling the decisions, it's in some ways design almost doesn't matter. I know that's really hard to say as an architect, but it really doesn't matter because if you're not really focused on solving a particular issue for a specific set of people, you kind of just you know what are you designing actually? And so building it from that ground up, knowing what the community wanted, and then layering design, layering finance, layering all of these pieces onto it, then you create something that's really special. So that's the DNA of the company who are built around doing things like that.

Rens Hayes IV 6:37

I can understand the dichotomy you're describing there as an architect who wants to have an impact. You want to be able to provide a space for the artist. But if you're not in the driver's seat of the development, although those might be priorities that you have, they might be not necessarily that another say, let's say, developer in that seat doesn't care about those things, but they also have other pressures and decision-making criteria and other goals that they have to meet. So then they become like a blend of the overall. So I would love to understand from your seat. Like we talk about newbie and square and this amazing development you're able to create. Like, when did you find out about this opportunity and what goes into creating an asset like that with public and private partnerships that allow you to create such a community impact?

Greg Minott 7:20

Yeah, so I would credit certainly the city of Boston for having the vision for, and of course, stakeholders in the community for having the vision of wanting to use these public assets, these city-owned parking lots or vacant land, and use it for public, so public land for good is one of the catchphrases I know I reclaim Roxbury uses, who is one of the local organizations in the area. But the RFP process was a deliberate process that focused on development without displacement. And I think given that focus, we were able to, I think, take a, I wouldn't say, I think it would, it's a take a risk in terms of creating something that was really unique to that community prior to us coming. I think prior to our project, the last building to be built in that area was probably 10, 12 years prior. Meanwhile, yeah, meanwhile, they're in every virtually every other neighborhood in Boston, it felt like there was every few months there was a new building popping up. There were cranes everywhere, but there was not not much going on in this neighborhood. So it was a real risk to uh to think that you're gonna build a mixed-use project and that you're also not going to just build, although affordable housing clearly important, it's a priority, but not only build income-restricted housing, but also to build market rate housing. And you know that people want to come in. There's the other risk where there's still safety concerns in the area. There's some drug use and different things that people need, still need a help to get on their feet and some services and things like that. So all of that is happening all around what we're trying to build. But we decided that it was worth the risk to come in with building more retail, knowing that we would find tenants that would not only support the project economically, but that would really be something a service to the community or support local business. And at the time, there was like we have to make these retail spaces very small because only they can only afford certain rents and things like that. And we decided that sure, we're gonna make it flexible to divide it up, but we want it to actually be a sizable retail space so that businesses can actually grow in the space and it's not so chopped up that it can't serve the community. So we also that was a conscious decision. The other decision was that we're gonna make a building that not only had rental in there, which there was a lot of affordable rental around, but we wanted to make it mixed income. And not only did we want to make it rental, but we also wanted to add homeownership, which is not something you find in every development because of the complexity of the financing and all of that. But home ownership was a priority for the neighborhood. They wanted wealth-building opportunities and to be able to enjoy some of that capital appreciation that most of us that own our own homes can enjoy and know having that in the middle of the heart of Nubian Square. So that was uh the model. And then the other part, then the other layer is to target a very a population or group of folks, I should say, that were being pushed out, which were the artists. And there had been virtually no new artist housing that was being built targeting that many units. So anywhere in Boston for a long time. We had stories in the early 2000s about the four-point neighborhood and how that was being supported and all that, but nothing on this side of you know, mass is that right?

Rens Hayes IV 11:23

The four-point neighborhood was an artist hub.

Greg Minott 11:26

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.

Rens Hayes IV 11:28

Our office used to be out of four-point, that's a great little neighborhood.

Greg Minott 11:31

Oh yeah, it's incredible. And so we, yeah, so no seeing the success of what was happening over there, but also what was happening with how that area got revitalized. But then once commercial activities started to push into that neighborhood, the artists now who were key to that renaissance of that neighborhood, now they're being pushed out. And in this case, they were in New Band Square, they were also being pushed out, but we made a conscious decision to build a brand new building that 50% of the units could be targeted towards artists, and then also create maker space for the artists as well.

Rens Hayes IV 12:14

You you can see how challenging it is to stay mission-driven and why it's important for an organization like yours that's on the development, the architect, and then has the I would say like municipal relationships. Like you said, City of Boston was a big partner here. You can't do this, have this idea and this purpose and be market rate and get an investor and bank that to create this type of opportunity impact to a community, even if it is the best thing for that community.

Greg Minott 12:39

Yeah, no, you can't, because you do have, yeah, you have to answer to capital, the money that's coming in. They have expectations and returns and everything like that. So, yeah, there is you have to ask the right people, get the right type of capital together, have those municipal relationships, have the relationships with the neighborhood in terms of them supporting what it is that you're asking the city for, and then get local partners because, for example, we got John Apollon Expressions, which is a dance studio. We supported them in getting and help them to write a grant and get funding into the project so they could be in the space and fit out the space, but we shepherded that process for them to get the capital, right? So, in all in a lot of ways, we feel like we're a conduit to bringing all of those different interests together. They want a space, but they don't know how to get the money. We we know to get the money and we want to be able to offer space to these businesses, and so that relationship happens time and time again, depending on what is it that we're doing and where that bridge.

Rens Hayes IV 13:48

Conduits are great frame. And if we were to wrap this conversation or kind of pseudo case study up, what's the time frame from the point of insect like inception, like when this land came available to when you started construction or got built? Like how long does a project like this take to come together?

Greg Minott 14:07

I'll give you the chronological answer and I'll give you the real answer, which is it takes too long.

Rens Hayes IV 14:14

It takes too long.

Greg Minott 14:16

I agree. It takes too long, and I don't think it's any fault of any of the the uh people involved, it's just that it's development's complex, right? But it took us from 2018 when ARP came out, we responded, and that was probably like a six-month selection process, and this was city-owned land, city-owned land, yeah. And then the other part, and so this is the other key piece to it, is that it was a city-owned piece of land, but there's also a privately held piece of land next to it owned by a local nonprofit called Haley House. Now they own units, but they don't necessarily do a lot of development, and so we realized that it was an opportunity, again, being connected with the neighborhood and wanting to see something really catalytic come out of this. We offered to buy their land that abutted the development and make a bigger development, and then offered for them to now own their space, not just be a tenant, but own a cafe, right? And then build the rest of the program that I described before. But all of that took time till because you had land swaps and different things, but we knew where we were going, right, to create this really integrated project from 2018 going through all those conversations, the regular permitting through the city of Boston, Article 80, all of that, which a lot of products do. But then layered on top of that, we had all of these different real estate land disposition pieces going on. At the same time, then COVID hit, so we had to work through that. We also had to go to the state a couple different times. So it took about two years to bring all the financing together. So before we even hit shelves in the ground, we're already at probably added up, we're like three plus years, right? And then building it is another two plus years. So now we're we're looking at six years to deliver this project.

Rens Hayes IV 16:25

And did it have the impact on the community you had hoped?

Greg Minott 16:27

Oh, it's beyond our wildest imagination. It's a fantastic product. We'd love to show you sometime. We've had the community come through, we have had students from local high schools, we've had uh local artists that were able to engage to do a mural inside a lobby that really celebrated the history of this area as this vibrant economic engine that over time fell on hard times, and it just is celebrating what it is today. It's like a beacon, right? Of what's the future for this neighborhood. It's really incredible. And then you have the ribbon cutting for the dance studio earlier this year, and just to hear the story of what it meant to this founder who his Haitian background immigrated to the US many decades ago, searching for a home for his studio for 15 plus years, and then finally finds it in our building. It's just wow. You hear stories over and over again, or you hear about the construction worker that was a laborer on site and now she has a unit in the building.

Rens Hayes IV 17:39

It's like fairy tale after fairy tale. Greg, I want to get to know you a little bit more. Tell us about growing up in Jamaica.

Greg Minott 17:48

Yeah, so growing up in Jamaica was great. I had a really great childhood. My I grew up in this hilltop town called Mandeville. It was an area. My parents moved there. My father was an engineer. Great guy. Yeah, he's a great guy. That's right, because he's an engineer, that's right. And so he he worked for this multinational company, did bauxite mining, and then my mom was a real estate broker, and so the town I grew up in, it grew pretty rapidly over time because of the bauxite operation that was there. It was quite lucrative, and there were a lot of homes being built. It was a lot of development happening, and I was able to see that, and we built our own home there. So I was exposed to that at an early age of my parents looking for inspiration, driving around the country, asking for my input. I was in my early high school when all this was happening, and it really opened up my eyes to like, wow, I actually kind of like doing this, picking out the column for the or the window design and how the house should lay out. And then also driving all over this beautiful country of Jamaica with my mom, who was buying and selling commercial and real estate.

Rens Hayes IV 19:13

And you got to tag along with her doing that? Tag along doing that, and you definitely drive around a lot as a broker, so I get that you can see everything, right? Oh, yeah.

Greg Minott 19:21

So I went into the far corners of that country, and it was a good time that really exposed me to a lot, and then by the time I had to decide what I was gonna do for my studies after high school, I got exposed to a an architect who was a friend of my mom's, and got a chance to interview him, ask him questions about the profession, and then I applied for architecture school. I did not get into architecture school, by the way. I the first time, no, I did not. They said I wasn't ready, so I was like, okay, maybe I was too young or didn't have the portfolio, whatever the case. But I felt like that's really what I wanted to do. But I I took a detour and did a year of computer science, actually, and did quite well at that. Did programming and got deep into technology. I was already always into technology.

Rens Hayes IV 20:16

Did that exposure kind of help you throughout your career?

Greg Minott 20:19

It did. I had I didn't realize that it would I that foundation of technology would just la you know last me throughout my career that I'd be using it so much. Things happen for a reason. It certainly does.

Rens Hayes IV 20:32

I love the I love the persistence. So yeah, don't get into architecture, computer science becomes a lever, and then you're still persistent to go back and get into architecture school.

Greg Minott 20:42

Yes, still yeah, go back and so get into architecture school, and then fast forward to my thesis year, and the same place that I grew up, Mandeville, I decided that was what I was gonna do my thesis on because while I did see all of this influx of development, people moving in, industry, economic activity, but then I also saw this very same place that was beautiful start to choke on development. There was overcrowding in the commercial areas, there's traffic everywhere, the master planning of the development, the master planning, yeah, of the town just wasn't there. How to deal with municipal services, the trash wasn't being collected in a timely manner. There was places that needed lights, traffic lights, they weren't there. How to deal with the transportation center, and so my I started to now connect my passion for the built environment to okay, what do I really care about? I really care about how places develop and grow and and succeed over time, and urban places or even suburban places, but more than just the building itself, and very curious about how all of these pieces interconnected to make a place that a desirable place. Live. And so that's that was in my thesis here. And going back because I moved away for school to the capital of Jamaica, which is Kingston, was about 60 miles from where I grew up. So being able to go back there and study that.

Rens Hayes IV 22:15

That's so meaningful. It's such a great example to drive on the importance of master planning. I think sometimes I grew up in greater Boston, and we no doubt have our flaws, but for all intents and purposes, a pretty developed tier one city with master planning. Yes. Right. But you can visualize even then when I in my early career I moved to the north end and I had always grown up in the suburbs where we have trash cans. And I was like, we just throw our trash bags on the sidewalk twice, three times a week. I was like, Are you kidding me? This is the best solution we have. So thinking of that back from a thesis they hadn't considered trash pickup is so interesting. So you're in Jamaica, you're studying architecture. What led to the leap for you to come to the United States and pursue your no pun intended dream here?

Greg Minott 23:00

Yeah, I think it was just a lying, I think, to explore the world a little bit. I'd never left prior to leaving, prior to studying architecture, because I did my first degree in Jamaica at the Caribbean School of Architecture. So it was the only architecture school in all the Caribbean. So I had people from all over the world actually, but certainly from different parts of the Caribbean come there to study. But also because of our connection to the UK, I had a lot of my professors for from they studied in the AA in London and different places. So they were all over the world, Germany. So I got exposed to a lot in terms of studies and their influence, even though we were studying primarily Caribbean architecture, but certainly learning about everywhere and the development that was happening in American and European cities. So that was always intriguing to me. And once I graduated in my first degree, I was working for a couple years. Thought I'd never leave Jamaica, but then I think my third year of working, I just got an itch to start to travel. And I had actually gotten into a master's program in Jamaica at the same time I got into a master's program in New Jersey, and I decided to go to New Jersey to scratch that itch to travel. Yeah.

Rens Hayes IV 24:23

Yeah, that's really cool. Do you ever sit here in a bitter cold winter and you're like, why did I leave? Every winter. Every winter. Because I'm thinking about like, why don't I move down there in the winter? These islands are beautiful. Yeah. And it's 15 degrees out and windy.

Greg Minott 24:41

Exactly. But so even though the weather's definitely better there, there's certainly a lot that I have learned about master planning, about process, about how policy affects development. I think American cities like Boston have certainly got a lot of that. We certainly have a lot of room to grow, but it's not something I experienced to the level of sophistication it is here. And so definitely from that standpoint, career-wise, it was certainly the right move, even though I still have layers of clothes on when it's almost 70 degrees.

Rens Hayes IV 25:21

Please excuse the three layers of clothing. Do you have a is there a mentor that stands out to you from your early architectural career?

Greg Minott 25:28

I've been fortunate to work with and for some really great people, even from my if from Jamaica, my first boss there, who I'd actually later do a competition win. And with someone who really taught me about being a professional and showing up on time.

Rens Hayes IV 25:47

And those are learned skills, right?

Greg Minott 25:50

Yeah. Yeah, right.

Rens Hayes IV 25:51

That's an important frame. Like being on time is a skill that work on it.

Greg Minott 25:55

It is, it is, right? And how to follow through, how to present yourself well, and just all of the just all the basics in terms of a foundation, but also someone who gave me opportunities that maybe I didn't feel like I was ready for, but would just throw me into these rooms and obviously with some guidance, but that built confidence, right?

Rens Hayes IV 26:20

Any advice for that you received in that time? You're in a room, like over your head, not sure what to expect, get a few prep questions, like what helped you kind of navigate those challenging times.

Greg Minott 26:31

Yeah, I think it's really being responsible enough to know that I still need to not work alone. I'm not like a renegade, right? Like I I have a have a boss, all of that. So it was more just like I'm accountable. He's giving me a lot of responsibility, and I just and I felt a deep sense of accountability to protect his name, his company. And even though I didn't know exactly everything I was doing, I knew enough to say, I think as long as he can trust me, I'm gonna keep growing. And so it was more about to me the relationship with him that I think helped me to survive, yeah, that trust. And I think when others see that, they're like they're willing to step in and help you in that room where others are relying on you for decisions or something like that.

Rens Hayes IV 27:29

I think accountability is a differentiator. And the reason I say that is because no one thinks they're not accountable, right? Because we can all have an excuse for why it wasn't our fault, but accountability really comes for are you the one that identifies the gray area and then make sure something is resolved, even if you can't do it directly. It's like making sure you take responsibility for the communication gap. Yes, that's being accountable to me.

Greg Minott 27:53

Exactly. And bringing back those decisions, make sure they happen, make sure they get communicated back, and then learning that there's one key thing, learning that a decision is not made until it's communicated. I heard that over and over again, right? So that you have to communicate it because I like we said, we work with so many different people, and how you communicate that decision or when you do communicate that decision, nobody it's not made until it's communicated, and somebody receives it.

Rens Hayes IV 28:23

That's a lesson for everybody in the industry, and then also a business leader. Like, how many times at the top we've we sit here and think about something for 40 hours and then don't tell anybody? It's like you made a decision, but it's not a decision unless people know about it. Exactly.

Greg Minott 28:38

And it were just different things you would teach me. Yeah, it might sound like a lot of pressure, but get it right the first time, meaning you don't have to get it right the first time necessarily, but you need to be able to test, ask the questions, test it, whatever. So you the first time you actually go and do it, you get it right. Doesn't happen all the time, but with that mindset, you know that it's the measure twice, cut once, people say it in different ways, but I think those things help. So that was my first first job in Jamaica. But then coming here to the US and then coming to Boston definitely had great mentors. And I think those mentors were more of okay, now I'm dealing with a much bigger scale of project complexity, more sophisticated clients and things like that. This the leap for me was not necessarily skill or competence, I think it was more confidence at that point, and uh it was more encouragement and belief in in oneself and one's ability. And that's what they really helped me to do at that juncture. That was a critical point in my career.

Rens Hayes IV 29:52

I'll share a frame, Greg, and and for those that have listened in the past, I I've probably repeated this a handful of times. The term confident humility.

Greg Minott 29:59

Yeah.

Rens Hayes IV 30:00

And that's exactly what I hear you describing. It's like the confidence to achieve a result, but the humility to know that you don't necessarily have all the answers right now, but you can be resourceful and get it done. Right. That's when I think you really hit like your kind of momentum in your career is when you sit there with confident humility. Because then you're not making an up answer up on the spot, you're going to those meetings with complete confidence and poise, you're thinking clearly because you're not worried about judgment. That's like confident humility is like where you want to live.

Greg Minott 30:27

Exactly. Yeah. And and that it was okay to live in that area, right? Because you could overreach, you could make up some answer, you gotta get people in your career.

Rens Hayes IV 30:39

Don't make stuff up. Quick break from the show. Thanks for tuning in to design development. We're trying to help as many people as possible. So if you could subscribe and leave a review on today's episode on whatever platform you're listening, it would be a great help. It's the only way we're gonna reach more people. Let's get back to the show. Take us back to 2008. You, your co-founder Troy, were this is either right at the precipice of the financial crisis or right after, and we're gonna launch a firm. Tell us about this founder journey. How did this come to be?

Greg Minott 31:15

Yeah, so we were working at the same firm, we were good friends, and we decided that we saw a gap in the market to bring this integrated firm to life. But as you said, it was 2008. So even the best of ideas and intentions, somebody needs to pay the bills. And it's at the time we had young families. I just had my first child, and it was and I I and I heard this, I kept on hearing this time and time again. Is oh in a recession, it's the best time to start a company. And I was like, How is it? How can it be the best time to start a company? The economies down, opportunities are fewer, but what I didn't realize is that in a downturn, people are more willing to take a phone, take your phone call.

Rens Hayes IV 32:06

Oh, I love that. That's exactly where my mind was going when you said that. I was like, it must be because no one has anything to do with this, so they're available.

Greg Minott 32:13

Exactly. I'm in take a coat. So I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, I got a lot of return phone calls, and it worked out.

Rens Hayes IV 32:22

What was your first big win where you're like, okay, we got this?

Greg Minott 32:25

Our first big win. We had several wins before this one, just working relationships. I'd done I was in a pretty large church at the time, or a church that was becoming large, and the pastor had asked me to do do a church for the congregation they were building or finding trying to find a new home. So I actually helped him again. That real estate hat came on again, looking at different sites and everything, and then finally landed on the right one, and then going through permitting and all the rest and got it built out for them. But I was able to do that on my own. But I would say the real point where we actually now started to build an infrastructure was a couple of years later, where our first project was for the Boston Housing Authority. So we had no prior experience working with any housing authorities. And if you know some of the public RPs, they ask for five of the same thing that you've done over the last five years, some something like that, and we had zero. We we've done stuff before, obviously, we're experienced people, so we had either done it at all of places or done a church or done something that built credibility and had references, but we're also the lowest bidder, so that helped to push us to the top. And then I think the other thing that we did that was strategic was we aligned ourselves with because it was a particular specialty with envelopes, building envelope and enclosures that needed to be addressed. So we partnered with another firm to do that part and had them as a subconsultant to us. And so we had a really great subconsultant. We had the lowest price, and we were we had and the lowest price because we didn't have any employees, and so the cost base was low. And so we're able to get the job.

Rens Hayes IV 34:22

Yeah, now you have that portfolio item exactly, and then hire our first employees. Was that a daunting decision to hire your first employee? It was, yeah. Or how did you wrap your head around that?

Greg Minott 34:35

I had read it was an architectural record, and it was a very prestigious project, and they were interviewing the the founder of the company, and I I never for because when you grow up and you go to through school, you're hearing about your goal is to win an award, right? Have the beautiful building, the final finished photos, everything's perfect.

Rens Hayes IV 34:58

No one told me that in college.

Greg Minott 35:02

But uh, but the funny thing is, when I read the article and read about how he started, he said that it was all about cash flow. He and he was an award Pritzker Prize winning type of architect, and he broke it down very simply. It's about cash flow. Let's not get it took mistaken. And I was like, okay. So I said, okay, this is about cash flow. So if I'm gonna have an employee, I'm gonna be responsible to pay them and all that. They have their own livelihoods, and so that's what we focused on was okay, we're committing to uh and we got intern, not intern, but recent graduates. So there was a lower cost, we're able to guide them and mentor them, but uh and do well. But we have to keep our eye on on that so that we could continue to build momentum and not get carried away with, oh, we got this really gear project, and then forget that we have to actually run a business.

Rens Hayes IV 35:57

I love that conversation around the first hire because anytime you start a new business, you're like, even if you're confident, you're like, all right, I gotta make ends meet to provide for my family and cover my bills, right? Like you're it's a fear of losing. And then all of a sudden you gain some momentum and you're like, now I'm taking on more expenses. What if I just worked extra hard and did everything? In my but then that eventually catches up to you. And I come back to your very mission-driven company. And when I talk about the importance of mission, vision, and values, it's like if you know where you want your company to be in five years, what's a sure way to not achieve that goal? Probably not hiring employees, right? So then when you start to look at what's the cost of inaction and not hiring, it's I can't create more opportunity, I can't do these things, and it helps make those decisions, but it does come back. You have to have cash flow in your business and knowing your numbers gives you that confidence, right? Exactly.

Greg Minott 36:48

Yeah. And and yeah, and why did we want to grow is because we want to have more people, we want to impact more people, we want to have more folks benefit from the same kind of mentorship that I was able to benefit from and grow in their careers and do all of those things. And yeah, it was like a flywheel effect, right? Once you get that going.

Rens Hayes IV 37:09

Well, well said, growth isn't the goal, but when you have a purpose, like if you want to have a bigger impact, growth is the byproduct of having a better impact, right? On the people that choose to join your company and that you serve. Exactly. Architect by trade, drove around Jamaica with your mom. So you're a real estate expert, right? Yep. So you launched an integrated company. Was it real estate and architecture out of the gate? Was it architect? Like, how did you develop real estate development acumen? And then also, like, where did you turn to invest in your business acumen? Because you really are doing there's three three skills there architecture, real estate development, and business growth.

Greg Minott 37:47

Yes. So I would say it's so architecture, obviously trained as an architect. I'd say minored in real estate development. I'd bought properties myself and modest on the side and things like that. So it was always part of, I understood it, but development is almost like a slightly different beast because there's so there's a lot more involved, there's a lot of risk that you have to manage. So we started out with the architecture. Again, that's get clients through the door, start to build a brand, cash flow. So that's where we started. And we also learnt some of the real estate development business by working with or close with our clients, being in the in those rooms, right? They say sometimes a lot is a lot more is caught than taught, right? And I was able to catch on a lot to a lot of things being in those rooms. And I would even say from even working with former employers that part, I think one of the great things they did from for me earlier on is provide me access to rooms that I probably shouldn't have been in or wasn't ready, maybe or pretty young in my career, in my probably mid-early, very earlier and mid-20s, and being in these big development deal conversations and understanding just taking it in step by step, right? So I had that basic understanding, and then like I said, the DNA of the company was always to do all of these pieces, but certainly started with the architecture piece. And then I, as we went along, we were able to see opportunities where maybe some of our clients it didn't really quite fit their business model. So we took certain opportunities to them, said, Hey, what do you think about this? They were like, No, it wasn't for them, and so we said, Well, why not us? We this is where we're going as a company. I think we could learn some things and start small, and so that's what we decided to do. And then along the way, I had done some executive courses, like at you know, Harvard in developing housing, developing affordable housing, developing mixed-use projects. So I did that. I'm a continuous learner, I'm a lifelong learner, so I'm always trying to that's right, learn something new. That's the ethos here. I love it. Oh, yeah. So it was all those executive trainings for the real estate, understanding performa, how to put a deal together, how to manage risk, how to what does the bank need to get comfortable with a deal, and just learning all of that over time. Yeah. So that's the development piece, and then parleying that into a smaller development to really understand how to permit, how to, you know, we did the designs ourselves, but then hiring the contractor and managing all these different pieces. So you learn, you make mistakes, of course. We we did, we made them, and and we learnt and we grow, right? So that was the development side, and then the business side, at so at a certain point, after getting growing, getting employees on board, and then you start to hit certain ceilings in terms of how to manage, how to keep track of your numbers, how to not try and serve everyone, right? Because at the beginning, you're just trying to get going, so you're doing anything that comes through the door, you're right because mow ons like right now we do, absolutely, exactly.

Rens Hayes IV 41:22

There are stages to growth, and that lesson is different every single stage.

Greg Minott 41:27

Exactly. And we were just hitting different stages, and I was like, I need to learn some things about marketing, I need to learn some more things about accounting. So when I get something from my accountant, I can understand what I'm looking at because they don't necessarily teach you business in school, right? They take you you learn professional management, how to manage contracts and the contractor and different things, but not how to run a business. And so I went back to to Babson. There was a it was like a it was almost like a mini MBA. So it was nights and weekends for almost six months, and at the end of it, you had to create a almost like a little case study of how you're gonna grow your company. So it was really cool. Taught me a lot, built my network, and what I did work on at that point was that integration model, right? And that's what I took before all these great professors and business people at Bobson, and and then got some tools, some more tools to move that forward.

Rens Hayes IV 42:30

Greg, I applaud this journey and how you just explained that whole thing. It is that lifelong learning is absolutely evident with you. And I think leading with curiosity, that confident humility we were talking about. I think it's when you have confident humility, you're willing to look at yourself objectively. And if you have clarity on your mission and vision, which is building this integrated company, you're looking at yourself. It's okay. What skills do I need to develop? What risks do I need to better understand so that I can put our company in a better position to succeed to fulfill that mission and vision? And like you just talked about all these resources that you went into, the courses on real estate development, talking and being in those rooms, then investing in like this small MBA F Abson because you saw the need to solve the problem. I think far too often when I see people in a position that are trying to achieve a goal, but they're not that lifelong learner. They're they're just kind of they can get lost managing the symptoms of the root cause that is creating that. And the problem with the symptom is you can't solve a symptom. Right. And it's like the root cause to your problems are hidden in this unknown area, which are your blind spots, and you need to open up your perspective to learn new ways of thinking about the situation that you're in.

Greg Minott 43:41

That's exactly right. Yeah, that's one of the things that I've re I read a long time ago. I forget it's probably some famous person said it, but that problems can't be solved at the same level that they've created at, right? And in order to solve it, I had to move up my level of understanding. And that always took Stood out to me as something that, you know, when I see a problem that seems to be persistent, I'm like, okay, I need to move up. I need to get advice. I need to be able to bring something, a different perspective to this whole thing. And that's another part of the company that we wanted to make sure that was part of our DNA was exactly that is bringing in different perspectives, right? Because we were building or designing or the types of projects we needed the perspective of everybody to solve problems. Like why for Roxbury in particular, when I first moved to Boston in 2004, I was always curious why was it that the rest of the city seemed to have been moving forward with development? But for some reason, development was not moving forward in Roxbury. And in order to get, I'm not from this area, so I had to learn and learn and learn why things had not moved at the same pace and get the perspective of everyone, the people in the community, the elected officials, the business people, my own team, to in order to how we're gonna respond to these challenges. And that has stuck with us time and time again as we've grown, as we've encountered different challenges and so on, is to really get the perspectives of and that of people that are different than us so that we can learn and adapt and solve these problems.

Rens Hayes IV 45:29

You're approaching 20 years in business with your partner Troy. Any advice on what builds a strong partnership?

Greg Minott 45:37

Yeah, I would say respect underlies a lot a lot of it. We have certainly have had our disagreements, right? Like any relationship that has endured has gone for a period of time. But I would say that underlying genuine respect for each other and what each the unique gifts that each other brings. I wouldn't be here without him and he wouldn't have been here without me. And to ever get that confused is a recipe for the disaster because we're I have blind spots, I have strengths, I have weaknesses, he has strengths and weaknesses. And so what we've what we continue to do as we've grown and even been able to hire other people to maybe do things that we're not so good at, that has allowed us to even lean more into our own strengths as individuals, and it's really served us well. Like for Troy, he's really great with building relationships and we internally as well as externally. A lot of our biggest wins have been through his relationships. And then for me, it's about vision, it's about concept, it's about strategy, it's about seeing what's next, and then bringing that those resources to the firm. And those so that once we once he brings in the big thing that we have what we need to execute well, right? So it's and it's that synergy and understanding and that collaboration that is does really help. So I would advise anyone that is thinking about a partnership because I we've heard it several times like never get into partnerships with friends and never. And it's true, it's tough. It's it can be challenging if it's not if you don't share the right values or have the same goals. And that's one thing that alignment is really important, and that's one thing we keep checking in on like how are we doing, right? Are we because each of us we have business goals, but we also have personal goals, we have families, we have things that we want to do. Is what we're doing serving all of the purposes, like career, growing a business, growing an impact, but also personally, how is it affecting us and making it's important for both partners to be thinking about that because otherwise, like even as individuals, we can be heading down the wrong path if we don't take a second to reflect on what's important. Exactly. So intentionally having these retreats, like we'll retreat by ourselves, not just do with the we do have company retreats, but we'll also take some time away, play golf or whatever, or just take some intentional time away just to make sure we're having those conversations.

Rens Hayes IV 48:22

I like that you pointed out different strengths and weaknesses. And a lesson that I've learned in my journey is don't judge somebody else's value based on your strengths. And this comes back to that lifelong learner in blind spots is like when we haven't opened ourselves up to these other perspectives, we see everything through our lens, which is generally through our strengths and knowledge, but then we discredit people's strengths and their area of expertise if we haven't taken the time to actually be open to what that might be or what that opportunity cost of you not being an expert in that area is.

Greg Minott 48:53

Yeah. And believe me, I've we've both, I think, and I've seen that happen even with us, where we've discounted his level of discernment in terms of what's a good business relationship decision, not maybe running it by him, and then it's oh, that wasn't so smart, Greg. And it set us and it set us back, right?

Rens Hayes IV 49:13

Business isn't a straight line. It's not, and it comes back to that respect. I think a term that defines this conversation for me is always assume positive intent. Yes, you're gonna make a mistake, I'm gonna make a mistake, our partners are gonna make a mistake, but if we assume positive intent that they didn't make that intentionally to disrespect us or do negative harm to us, we can have a conversation objectively knowing that they had the right intent and that they made a mistake.

Greg Minott 49:40

Yeah.

Rens Hayes IV 49:40

Because the second we start, I know that's easy to do when it's with family or somebody you spend so much time with, you know them so well, you already know their flaws, and you can bury them for that flaw at any time if you want to. So let's assume positive intent and they will go far together.

Greg Minott 49:55

Exactly. Yeah, and we've we've definitely entered any partnership with the with that same lens, and then with an open mind, of course. If this isn't a good fit, that's okay too.

Rens Hayes IV 50:06

So you want to you want to take take a rug out of here, not that.

Greg Minott 50:15

But uh, but no, but having that open mind, I think, and keeping the door open, maybe it's not the right timing, or maybe it wasn't the right goals at that time for that partnership. But we've seen partnerships come all the way back around, like it wasn't the right time at that point, come five, 10 years later. Here we are, and we're actually doing something together. Yeah, so the long view, we take the long view.

Rens Hayes IV 50:39

Greg, one more conversation before we wrap up because I think it it's aligned very much with your mission and vision. You've had a seat at the table, equity, affordable housing policy in in Boston and Greater in Massachusetts. You're on Mayor Wu's advisory committee. Could you talk about that work that you're doing there and are we progressing in Boston in terms of equity and design?

Greg Minott 51:01

I'd say yes. I think we've certainly made a lot of good strides with regard to that. And I think that policies have enabled those conversations to happen, which is a good thing. I would say it's the starting point, it's where you tee off, right? Again, to use kind of a golf analogy. By the way, I love golf too. I my tennis stroke is a little better than my golf swing, I'll just say that. But but uh, I think it's a good analogy because you tee off, but you still have to, you still have to land it somewhere, you have to still meet the goal. And there's there can't there's many ways to get there. And I would say those many ways to get there are built on relationships, and so you still have to build those relationships that are that value what you bring to the table, relationships that are gonna be fair, they're that they're going to be authentic, and and that they're they're really focused on the out on shared outcomes. So I that's you can't prescribe, that's the only thing. It's something that is is innate to us as human beings in any relationship, and so those relationships take time. Uh and I would say that in terms of the BIPOC and creating access and opportunities, that's where I see that some of the downsides to what it can't be prescribed by policies, is what I'm saying. But it certainly opens the door and it opens a conversation, which is equally important, but there's definitely some account person relationship accountability that is is implicit in that in those in getting to the final outcome, which is less talked about. And so that's why I'm bringing that up.

Rens Hayes IV 52:51

And I like the analogy of teeing off because you're creating the opportunity in the conversation, but there's more to it. I I do look at like the root of equity and equality is like education and opportunity. And so the more we can bring those to conversation, the more we can lead to a better future, right?

Greg Minott 53:08

Yeah, 100%. So I don't discount it at all. And I think Boston has done a real job, good job in in opening up that door to that conversation. Contracts and of course opening up the opportunity for contracts, that's been good. We've certainly benefited from being, but again, it's a door opener. We still have to execute, right? And that's why we choose to focus with a very unique model that focuses on how are we different from any other company on planet Earth, which is what each every company has to do. Differentiation so important. Have to have the differentiator, and so that's what we focus on. So we focus on our strengths, brilliant value, bringing value to these relationships, and the ones that we know are going to work well is when they recognize truly the value that we bring. And words that haven't worked so well is when that's not in place. So we've figured that out along the way, but uh but the door opening is really great.

Rens Hayes IV 54:08

I think wrapping that kind of wraps up some of our conversation today, right? Is understanding who you serve and then making sure that you're aligned with where you're going. Exactly. Right? Because if you can find those two things, you become different and that becomes your differentiation. Exactly. Greg, uh a fellow lifelong learner, which I love to learn, naturally curious. Do you have a book or podcast you would share with the audience today?

Greg Minott 54:32

If I was to look at my playlist right now, I would say good to great. Jim Collins is certainly one that I that I enjoy. And I've read that a couple different times, and it's sometimes hard to put it into perspective when because they're dealing with Fortune 500 companies and things like that, but I I feel like it's still a good because everyone starts somewhere, right? And I've been able to think about that.

Rens Hayes IV 54:58

There is the emyth that that was the book that I read that taught me there was so much to more to learn about business. It's like at first I was like just so focused on being a great engineer and serving my customer well and designing good buildings and having good service, and then I was like, wait a second, like there is so much to learn about what it takes to run a business. I need to go figure this out, right? Oh, yeah. It's like the best crash course to learning that we don't know anything we need to know about business when you're first starting.

Greg Minott 55:26

Oh exactly, exactly. You just read through all those, and I could go on, but it's really about lifelong learning. And I think those are two that really stand out. EMyth beyond the E myth, 10x is easier than 2x, right? So thinking 10 steps ahead or 10 sizes bigger is easier than figuring out how you're gonna get to double your revenue. Because if you think just about how to double versus how to 10x, you you're not thinking about systems or processes or repeatable, scalable things. And that's what we're that's what we're doing. And that's exactly those kind of conversations that we've had internally is now poised this the company for growth beyond where we started in Boston. Now we're reaching other states. Our partners are taking us into not only other states, potentially doing more in the Caribbean, for example. And that's only because we've put some of these things in place internally to support that kind of growth.

Rens Hayes IV 56:31

Yeah, that's said, right? It's like just because you have opportunity doesn't mean you're prepared to actually deliver on that opportunity. So you got to make sure you can balance demand with supply, and that requires a lifelong learner to make it happen. Greg, thank you so much for sharing your journey. I I love what you and the team at Dream stand for. I wish you, Troy, and everyone over at Dream nothing but the best.

Greg Minott 56:51

Uh, thank you so much, friends, and you as well, and all the best of all that you're doing and the podcast.

Rens Hayes IV 57:00

Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into design development. Real quick before you leave, our goal is to help as many people as possible. We're a growing community and you're a big part of it. So just click that send button. Send this episode to a friend to let them get the same insights that you got today. We appreciate you. See you next time.